Show Notes
Alana Woodbury answers your basic questions about being inclusive of the LGBTQ+ community. She also tells her story of accepting her sexuality and how that fit into her Mormon upbringing, as well as how her upbringing affected her views of womanhood and feminism.
Transcription
Mady: Welcome to another episode of Shouting About The Silence - I’m your host Mady Cohen, and I am joined today by Alana Woodbury - Alana thank you so much for joining us today!
Because I am a cis-gender white woman in a hetero relationship with a cis-gender white man, I realize that there are a lot of things that I’m blinded to by my privilege. And I think that there are a lot of people listening who can relate. So I want to start by asking you some questions that might sound really basic, but I that I think are necessary in order to break down stigmas and clarify some misunderstandings and things that people might overlook or just not know. And I appreciate your willingness to have this conversation and open up this dialogue to help everyone be more inclusive with their language and their interactions and activism. So how you identify, specifically? Alana: I identify as gay or lesbian. I’ll answer to both. Mady: Do you prefer gay or lesbian? Alana: I use gay more often and it’s just because of the stigma around the word lesbian. It still feels like a weird word to me. I don’t mind either one and I’m kind of starting to lean more into lesbian. But either way works. Mady: What kind of stigma do you see around the word lesbian? Alana: I think just my ideas from childhood of it being not necessarily a dirty word - well, maybe a dirty word. Just kind of weird - you get an image of a butch and masculine woman. That’s the idea I had in my head growing up and I’m still trying to shake that. Mady: I think the word gay is used way more often. I’m not sure if that contributes to the stigma remaining. Alana: I think gay is more generic. It’s easier and more convenient in so many ways. So I think a lot of lesbians are comfortable with the term gay. Mady: What language is offensive? Alana: Dyke has been an offensive term throughout the ages. We can use it within our own community, but I still flinch when I hear it because it isn’t really used in a respectful way. Mady: I know there are some words that are taboo because they’re inaccurate like lifetsyle and choice. Alana: Ya the gay lifestyle makes it seem like a choice. My gay lifestyle is pretty similar to your straight lifestyle. Mady: I think that a lot of the language that we’re surrounded with is homophobic and oppressive, frankly, and because it’s the language that we’re surrounded by, it’s very easily accessible, and it can be the most comfortable or the easiest to use because we’ve heard it so much. And it can be difficult to then try to be inclusive with our language when we don’t have the right vocabulary. Like for example -this is so mortifying because it’s a personal example- but the term sexual preference, I thought, was referring to people’s actual sexual preferences - like how many partners you choose to be with, and just referring to sexual freedom in general - and not the gender that you’re attracted to. And I didn’t give it a lot of thought because I thought it was so obvious to everyone that sexual orientation is not a preference or a choice - I thought that was common knowledge, and because I’ve heard this term used so frequently, I didn’t even realize how offensive it was when I’ve used it. So I think this is an important conversation, because homophobic language leads to misunderstandings and stereotypes of the lgbtq community. Alana: You know, I’m part of the LGBT community and I still make those mistakes because of ignorance. And I’ll probably continue to mess us and people are pretty forgiving. Mady: There have been times when I’ve been called out respectfully and it’s helpful. But when people respond with anger it doesn’t always fix the problem. Alana: It’s easy for us to get offended because it’s important to us. But as society we need to be forgiving with each other when we mess up. It’s about intentions and when you don’t know people’s intentions it’s easy to get defensive. Mady: I think when we use language that’s not correct it feeds into those stereotypes. Alana: I’m sure we’ll get into the term “same sex attraction.” Mady: Yes. What opposition do you have with that? Alana: A lot of people especially in religious communities like that term because it seems a little safer. I think it sounds clinical like it’s just some temporary experience I’m having. I feel like it’s purposefully used to avoid a lable. You’re experiencing same sex attraction but you’re not gay. Which is fine for people who are navigating that space and don’t want to put a lable on it. But i think there is a stereotype where if you call yourself gay or you call yourself a feminist it puts you in a box or limiting yourself. But I don’t agree with that I think it I think it helps us express a part of our identity and what we’re passionate about. Mady: And I think it’s different when you use it to identify yourself - but not when other people identify others that way. Alana: That’s a huge thing within the LGBT community. When we have labels that we use and that we’re comfortable with and identify with, it really shows a lot of respect when others use those same labels. As a gay cis-gender woman I don’t like it when people say I’m experiencing sam sex attraction, just like trans-people don’t want to be called by their dead names. Please use the correct pronouns. It appals me that people think they have any right not to call them anything other than what they identify with. Mady: I had a conversation with Emily Pifer in the episode that will drop on July 29th, and she said something very profound that has really stuck with me. She said that unless a space is decidedly anti-racist, anti-sexist, and anti-homophobic, it is by default, racist, sexist, and homophobic because of the society that we live in. And it can be dangerous to enter spaces that we assume are safe and then they’re not. And when people choose not to use the correct language when they know better, they’re creating spaces that are not safe. Alana: And some people purposefully use the wrong pronoun or say the wrong name because they don’t want to show support. It’s hurtful, unproductive, and it’s wrong. Mady: Are there other stereotypes or offensive questions? Alana: Oh man. Some of them are offensive and they didn’t mean to be offensive - especially relating to gender roles. It’s interesting when people ask me which one of us is the man in our relationship. Or how I can have sex, because I can’t possibly have sex with another woman. That’s uncomfortable and inappropriate to ask. I can’t even think of more. There are too many. Mady: Maybe we can break this down for people who don’t get why it’s offensive. So if someone asks which one of you is the boy - is that how they would ask it? Alana: Ya, which one is the boy, which one is the man, which one wears the pants. Mady: Ok let’s maybe break that down and talk about why that’s offensive and inaccurate. Alana: It’s mostly inaccurate. It really puts you in a box there to think that that’s the only way a relationship can work is for one person to be more dominant or masculine. It shouldn’t matter. It’s 2019. It’s offensive because it’s like I’m with a woman for fun? I don’t know. It’s silly. Mady: I think it’s a harmful idea in a relationship between 2 people that there has to be this archaic prototype of a more submissive person and a more dominant person. Alana: Absolutely. You have so much from each partner. That’s the joy of the relationship You have different skills and traits coming into it. And it’s like that in a hetero relationship or a homosexual relationship - that’s just the whole joy of a relationship and how it works. Mady: I’ve been thinking a lot about stereotypes for gay men, and while I’m obviously no expert, I’m just thinking that people at some point assumed that if you’re attracted men, that is traditionally a female role - so someone attracted to men must also identify with all of the other traditional female traits assigned by the patriarchy like being femme and flambouyant, etc. So I think that same must apply with lesbians. If you’re attracted to women you must be masculine and butch. Alana: Absolutely. I think people might assume that I would date someone who is masculine. I get that too - you’re too pretty to be a lesbian. That’s not how it works. Gender is very fluid and sexuality is very fluid, and that’s somethine we’re learning more and more every day. And of course people do live up to some of those stereotypes but it’s not fair for people to judge based on those stereotypes immediately. Mady: When you were first navigated this journey when you started identifying as lesbian - was it tricky trying to find out if you identify with these stereotypes and trying to figure out your place? Alana: Ya. Everyday I’m learning more about myself and trying not to fall into stereotypes. Especially early on. I have a gay uncle and that was my only example of someone who is not straight. I think it is different for gay men because a lot of men come out and people say - Oh, we knew. He’s been a little gay, he’s been a little flambouyant. But it’s confusing for girls that are feminine and pretty because you can picture them with men. So that was hard for my friends and family and I didn’t have anyone that could say, “Ya I guessed that you were lesbian because ____,” because I didn’t have anything like that. And I’m not saying it’s easier for boys, but that was hard. Mady: I think that what you’re saying is an important thing to point out - your qualities and personality has nothing to do with sexual orientation. And if you fit into those stereotypes that’s great but you shouldn’t feel obligated to fit into them if you don’t. Alana: Ya, and I’m very much the same person as I was 10 years ago - but it can be fun to lean into those stereotypes at events, but it’s also very exciting to not have a box that you have to fit into. Mady: Let’s start getting into your story. When did you first learn what it meant to be gay. Alana: I remember being 8 or 9 at my grandparents' house. I was behind the couch gossiping with one of my cousins about the family. And my cousin said, “You know Uncle Matt is gay right?” And I was like what? What does that even mean? And he was like, “It means he likes men. He has a boyfriend.” And that just blew my little mind. I grew up in a conservative religious family, and “gay” “homosexuality” was very foreign to me. When prop 8 was happening in CA my family was involved in that. So that was a really negative introduction to homosexuality. “Here are these people that are in a horrible, unnatural lifestlye that people are choosing. We still love them. From afar. But we don’t support their rights.” It was a complicated feeling about gayness. It wasn’t very positive. Mady: I can see how that would be conflicting - and I had a similar introduction to the LGBTQ community. When I was in 4th grade a boy called a girl a lesbian, and for years I thought was “an alesbian.” Alana: It’s kind of funny to me now how it’s this whispered word. Mady: I really think the idea from Harry Potter that fear of the name only leads to fear of the thing itself is very real. Alana: It absolutely is. And the fact that we didn’t talk about it made it feel secret or hush hush or so bad that we can’t talk about it. Mady: Within Mormon culture Sexuality is very much discouraged for LDS youth who are encouraged to avoid being in situations where sexual feelings or temptations could arise - making sexuality a difficult/confusing topic with lots of shame surrounding it. So I imagine it was very confusing when you first started trying to understand your feelings. Alana: Definitely. There is a scripture in the Book of Mormon that sexual sins are almost as serious as murder - and homosexuality falls into that. I was a good kid growing up and I felt very righteous and that I would never have any issues with this. When I was older and in my first relationship with a woman it was bizarre to have this thing that was so serious that we avoided talking about as a natural and normal part of my life - it was a really big contradiction there. Mady: When did you first start to have the question of “Am I gay?” Alana: Now that I look back on it, as early as middle school and high school. But if I ever had the thought I would just banish it right away because I thought it was a choice - so I was like “Oh phew.” It’s impossible. I was really interested in some girls and I just thought it was admiration, I just liked how they dressed or played soccer or thought they were cool - but now I see that they were full blown crushes. I was never really interested in dating boys in high school but it was just because I thought I was so righteous and not partaking in those frivolous things. I had my first kiss really late in the game. It was just a summer fling and I was also dodging his affections. Then I dated a really great guy in college - shout out to Nick - where everything looked great on paper. We enjoyed each other’s company and I couldn’t think of a single thing wrong with him. But the first time we kissed I sobbed for like an hour afterward because I hated it so much and I couldn’t figure out why I hated it so much and I was so mad at myself - and then meanwhile I was having really emotionally intimate relationships with friends who were girls. It was so much easier for me to connect with them. And it wasn’t until after my mission I served for the church that I fell really hard for a girl, and the feelings were mutual, and everything made sense. It clicked into place, it was exciting and important, and it felt like all of those things I had seen in movies and read in books and heard in songs and it was the most natural thing in the world. That was it. I knew that that was a reality. Mady: That’s really beautiful. Alana: I think it is. And it was just a culmination of so many life experiences that finally everything was, “Ok, this is it. This is the thing I’ve been waiting for.” Mady: I imagine there were years of struggle behind that, and trying to navigate that. Was there guilt or shame? Alana: The biggest guilt came from feeling like I was hiding this really important part of me from my friends and family. I hardly ever felt guilty about this part of me because it felt so good that I knew on paper it must be wrong because that’s what I’d been taught. And coming to terms with that was confusing because there was how I felt, what I thought I believed, and what I had been taught. Mady: Were you nervous to tell your family about it? Alana: Ya. I was definitely nervous. We all have a part of us that doesn’t want to disappoint our parents and I knew that was how it was going to be. I knew how they felt because it was the same way I felt up until that moment. The lead up was not great. Mady: When did that happen? How old were you? Alana: I was in an on and off relationship with a girl after my mission. It’s funny now, but I made an appointment with my bishop who is the eccliastical leader of the congregation who you kind of confess your sins to, and my bishop was my dad. So that’s how I told my dad. Which is funny now but was uncomfortable for both of us at the time. Mady: Did you tell the rest of your family at the same time? Or separately? Alana: I don’t remember. I think I told my dad he could tell my mom if he wanted, and then I had a sit down with my siblings after the fact. My parents knew before my siblings. And at first it was just me and my parents trying to figure it out. Mady: The mormon church distinguishes between same-sex attraction and same-sex behavior. Same sex “behavior” can lead to church disciplining. So as a result some mormons do choose to “not act on” their same-sex attraction, and they remain affiliated with the church. Where do you stand on that? Alana: It’s hard for me to speak for those people who stay because I didn’t stay. I image they stay because of the tie to the church community and the belief in the doctrine. I totally respect that agency as I hope they respect mine. But the worst is when they’re used as an example by well meaning people who reach out and say “Hey here’s this gay member of the church and they’re living this celibate life and that could be you, you could do it to. This person got married to a member of the opposite sex and they’re making it work.” I really don’t enjoy when that happens. It’s such a personal experience that is unique to the person. I can tell you why I didn’t stay and that’s about it. I just feel - it’s cheesy probably, but I feel like my whole life purpose is to love and be loved. That’s what I was taught in my home and at church. We were trying to have this Christ-like pure love of God that was very divine and charitable. You know that scripture: Charity is kind, envieth not, is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, and I feel like I found that. I found that in my relationships with women. And I think it’s madness that my love is wrong, because we’re the same sex and that’s the only catch. That’s the main reason why I stepped away. Because I don’t want to do that. I don’t want to live without that. And I feel like I’m living my best life and being the best version of myself when I can love another person. Mady: I love that. Cheesy is good. It’s real. Alana: Ya - cheesy and incredibly important. Because it really feels like my whole purpose. I feel like the most fulfilled. I’m the best version of me when I'm in a committed relationship and when I have a partner that I’m working with and experiencing life with and serving. It’s wonderful. Mady: That’s so sweet. Has it been difficult for you to be around other members of the church since coming out? Alana: It doesn’t have to be. Some people make it harder than others. Because growing up in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was such a central part of my life - it’s more than something you just do on Sundays. It’s your culture and your whole life code. It’s your belief system. In some ways it’ll always be a part of my life and because it’s still so important to my family and a lot of my friends, we have to find this ground where we can spend time together. I don’t think it has to be hard. There are so many ways we can love each other and I can still appreciate the values I’ve been taught without needing to participate anymore. Mady: That’s a good perspective. I like the way you’re talking about love - and it’s between you and your partner as well as you and your family and community. You can have both. Alana: Absolutely. Like I said, if our whole purpose is to practice and receive love, it’s absolutely possible. We’re all good people. We all have good intentions. We might have different perspectives. But love and respect abounds and at the end of the day that’s what wins out. Mady: Was it difficult going to BYU which is a church school - because you have to uphold Mormon standards - so you couldn’t completely be you without facing disciplinary action. Was that difficult? Alana: Ya it was very difficult. I had about 2 years left at school after I fully came to the conclusion that I am gay. I decided ultimately to stay there. It’s a great school, it’s a great education. It’s a physically safe place to be - but not necessarily physically or spiritually safe place for me. I feel pretty sad about it honestly because college should be a time where you’re forming a lot of social connections and where you can dig into your classes, BUt in those last two years I was just in survival mode. I just wanted to graduate. So I skimmed through my classes and barely made it out. But c’s get degrees. I was living a very hermit lifestyle. I moved a lot. I moved every semester so they couldn’t keep track of me. Every local ward has a bishop and some different leaders, and there are people who are specifically assigned to come and visit you, so I moved a lot so that I didn’t come up on people’s radar. I didn’t make a lot of friends because I didn’t want anyone to know. And I didn’t think people would want to hang out with me after they knew. I had a really great, small group of friends who knew and they were very wonderful, but I was definitely a bit of an avoidant hermit. THe day that I graduated, my mom and I both cried because it just felt like freedom for me ina lot of ways. Mady: I can imagine how difficult the decision to stay verses transferring. BYU is a very affordable university - plus you were already there, you were involved in your program, it’d be a big shift, you’d have to answer questions about why you were transferring. Alana: I definitely looked at transferring and I did apply to some other schools, but I ultimately decided for those exact reasons that I should just stick it out. There is a group of people who are pretty out who go to BYU, and in some ways I feel a little cowardly that I didn’t stand with them and be in this out place. But I’ve heard lots of stories. They’re still happening. There are lots of stories. The honor code is what these standards and rules are called. And people get turned in just because they’re gay and the assumption that because they’re gay they must be doing something. Mady: The Mormon church has made some small reparations and steps that are more inclusive of the LGBTQ+ community. How do you feel about these steps? Alana: It’s hard to call it progress when you’ve taken two steps back, and then you take two steps forward to cover up those steps. That’s how this most recent policy reversal felt. I feel hopeful that the church will be more and more inclusive, just because it’s a reality that they are having to come face to face with. Back in the day because it was taboo and we didn’t know a lot of gay people because they were pretty much hiding and they weren’t in the church. Statistically everyone knows an LGBT person - whether they’re out of not.They’re definitely having to deal with it more head on. They have a website that addresses it, and there are some orrganization sthat aren’t church affiliated but are for gay members of the church and allies who want to support them. But it’s a really tricky situation because some young members who never got those more archaic beliefs see a big disconnect between what they’re seeing in their lgbt friends and what they’re hearing at church. I’m really grateful - I have so many friends and family who are so supportive and kind and I appreciate it so much. But it’s hard when this policy came out in November 2015 that was very damning to gay people and it called gay marriage an apostate and their kids couldn’t get baptized - and then 5 years later saying just kidding and not apologizing for the damage that had been done. It’s hard to feel grateful for that. Mady: I read a great article about how there wasn’t an apology and a bunch of people were celebrating it. And this is something that has been happening historically with the church where the church makes steps to repair some policy or stance that wasn’t politically correct, and they don’t apologize and it’s very positive because it’s progress, and they don’t answer to it in a straightforward way. And it can be so harmful to the people who it effects because they’re surrounded by people celebrating this change and this new level of inclusivity that’s being promoted, but it doesn’t feel great because they also felt the aftermath of the previous policy that affected them way more severely. Alana: Exactly. Mady: Is there any advice that you could give to someone who is still in the closet because they’ve been raised in a more traditional or religious culture and they’re afraid to come out? Alana: Ya, I’ve been there. THings might be a little scary and confusing now but they won’t always be this way. I know it sounds cliche, but things really do get better. People still in the closet, I want them to know they deserve happiness, authenticity, and love. Talk to some people you trust. Send me a message if you need support. I’m always happy to point people towards resources because there are so many and there is a whole community of people from all different sorts of backgrounds who are there and ready to support you whether you come out now, or in 20 years, or never? Mady: What advice can you give to families who aren’t exposed to a lot of diversity, specifically including the lgbtq community, and have a recently outed child? Alana: Well outed sounds like they’ve been outed by someone - so I would probably say someone who has recently come out. For families who aren’t super well versed in that kind of thing - get better versed. Learn some terminology. That’s a big deal and it means a lot. We all grew up hoping and expecting that our homes would be a safe place. So I would encourage families to make their homes a safe place. It takes a lot of courage and planning to come out, so if you can show appreciation to them for trusting you enough to talk to you about it, and be committed to listening. Being an active listener who doesn’t have an agenda is a big thing. Be respectful of their experience because you might never fully understand how they feel, but lots of studies show that youth are a lot less likely to engage in risky behaviors when they feel validated by their parents. When I say validated I mean not dismissing or diminishing what they feel to be true about themselves. I can tell you some unhelpful things that I’ve been told are: This is just a phase, you just haven’t dated enough, or presenting solutions like this could be fixed if you pray hard enough or keep the commandments. Guilt trips are a big no like how could you do this to us. That’s a big no. I would definitely avoid that kind of language. Ultimately and most importantly just express and show love for your child. We‘re all scared of rejection in some way and we all want to be loved unconditionally. That’s the most immediate thing that they need to hear and feel. And that that’s not going to change. Mady: As I’ve found while preparing for this, there is no shortage of information online to be more inclusive and to learn appropriate language. And I think that you’re a very cool source to have as well. Is there anything you’ve had to unlearn since coming out? Alana: Ya there are too many things to list about my beliefs in general. BUt in this podcast we’ve talked about gender stereotypes. Those don’t exist in my relationship so I’ve had to unlearn that. I’ve had to unlearn some behaviors that were very polite. I’ve had to learn how to stick up for myself more. For someone who doesn’t really like the spotlight and isn’t very outgoing, it is a crazy new world to live in this place where I’m holding hands with my girlfriend and walking down the street and making people uncomfortable. I’ve had to unlearn that being quiet, passive, and making myself uncomfortable because I want to help other people be comfortable. Allowing things to happen can perpetuate the behavior. It’s really tricky it’s a hard place to navigate for sure. Mady: Your uncle was a role model for you, have you had other role models that have been valuable for you? Alana: I've been working on seeing myself as a role model for myself. It’s really important in the space I’m navigating to say ya I did do this thing. This has been really difficult and I sometimes forget, and then I go on the internet and I see so much hate, and I just feel grateful for how far I've come. I look up to so many people. My big shoutout is the US Women’s Soccer Team. It’s so nice to see representation of who I am in a big screen like that. It’s been a lot of fun to see so many powerful and wonderful women. I don’t agree 100% with what everyone says but it’s so exciting to see women in the spotlight standing up for other women and to see that representation is so fun. Mady: I love what you’re saying about being your own role model. It is so awesome that we have this awesome representation for various marginalized community through the US soccer team, but there isn’t a steady flow of representation for every community. And I love that you can be your own role model and not have to base it off of someone else, and still have that love and respect for yourself. I like to end my interviews by talking about feminism. What was your first interaction with feminism? Alana: It probably was similar to yours because we had similar upbringings. It probably was that feminists are crazy and loud women. Just wordly and brazen and threatening traditional values and whining about their rights. It felt wrong and made me uncomfortable and like they were ungrateful because we had made so much progress. Obviously that’s not how I feel today. Mady: Ya I don’t know if I ever just said “feminist” by itself until I was about 20. It was always “crazy feminists.” Alana: And I still think feminists can be brazen and challenging our traditional viewpoints, but I view those things so positively now. I love the broad range of feminism. I can be here and support the quote un quote brazen feminists and the outspoken and the angry and those who are fighting the opposition in their own lives quietly. Mady: I love that. And these brazen women are the ones drawing attention to things and making stuff happen. Alana: Exactly. Mady: For me - something that was tricky for me growing up in the church is the idea of polygamy. It doesn’t happen any more but it paved the way for some rigid gender norms that has made it difficult for me to see that women empowerment is a good thing. It’s startling when you can look at how an entire civil rights movement has been discredited by communities that historically have oppresses women. Alana: It’s hard to talk about feminism without talking about the patriarchy. And religion is often patriarchal. It’s been perpetuated for years and years where there are traditional gender roles. Women are help meet like Eve was for Adam. It’s fascinating the progress that we have made, but also we live in a time where the leader of the free world has been accused of sexually assaulting multiple women. Mady: Where it gets scary is when women don’t feel comfortable questioning their role. I think that can be confusing. That’s how I felt. Alana: Ya. Like you said it's cultural. We've made strides in women's rights and equality, but at the same time, the leader of the free world has been accused of sexually assaulting multiple women. Women were oppressed then and women are oppressed now. Mady: But you would say now that you're a feminist? Alana: Oh ya. Feminism rocks!
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